Daily Archives: August 18, 2008

Faith Down: Impressions « Red Tory v.3.0 on the Saddleback forum

English-born Canadian blogger Red Tory gets this event about right, I think.

For people already decided about one candidate or another, the Saddleback forum probably won’t do anything to change their minds. If anything, it might just have served to confirm or reinforce their convictions about each man…

I didn’t stick around for the pundits’ wrap-up because we went out for dinner straight afterwards, but following up later, the consensus seems to be that McCain was the clear “winner” of the event. Whether it’s right to think about winners and losers in a forum like this is debatable. In any case, each candidate had specific objectives and, for the most part, they seemed to achieve them. McCain will have buttressed support with evangelical Christians that had been lagging behind expectations and Obama may have dispelled the notion that he’s the anti-Christ incarnate — or worse, a Muslim.

He homes in on something very significant in another post: Faith Down: Most Defining Moment.

In what might possibly be regarded in many ways as the most clearly “defining moment” from yesterday’s forum at the Saddleback mega-church, Pastor Rick Warren asked each candidate: “Does evil exist, and if so, do we ignore it, do we negotiate with it, do we contain it, or do we defeat it?”

The difference of the two responses couldn’t have been more vivid and perhaps says a great deal about each of the candidates and their worldview…


Evil does exist. I mean, we see evil all the time. We see evil in Darfur. We see evil, sadly, on the streets of our cities. We see evil in parents who have viciously abused their children and I think it has to be confronted. It has to be confronted squarely and one of the things that I strongly believe is that, you know, we are not going to, as individuals, be able to erase evil from the world — that’s God’s task. But we can be soldiers I that process and we can confront it when we see it.

Now, the one thing that I think is very important is for us to have some humility in how we approach the issue of confronting evil, but you know, a lot of evil has been perpetrated based on the claim that we were trying to confront evil… in the name of good. And I think one thing that’s very important is having some humility in recognizing that, you know, just because we think our intentions are good, doesn’t always mean that we’re going to be doing good.


Defeat it.

There in a nutshell, for better or worse, is the difference between “liberals” and so-called “conservatives” in my opinion…

Well spotted! The comment thread after that post is quite wonderful too.

We had a similar event, you may recall, in the lead-up to the Oz election last year. See The Gospels of John and Kevin.

Jim Wallace was right about one thing last night, however. We need always to keep in mind that Australia is not the United States, and the religious discourse here is (even on the right) not the same here as it is there. Thank God! There are some issues — health care, poverty, environment, work place relations — where even conservative churches in Australia would look hopelessly “liberal” to many of their American counterparts. Again, Thank God! Gay relationships, on the other hand, is another matter altogether, even if that is not an issue where I go to church.

— August 10, 2007

I am not sure that event really made an enormous difference here, much as Red Tory notes of the recent US example there.

Are such things anti-democratic, as some opposed to religion for one reason or another sometimes seem to fear? Not necessarily. After all, democracy as such favours neither the determined secularist nor the determined religious activist, especially in a place like Australia where voting is not optional — or going to the polling booth isn’t optional, to be more accurate. All contribute to the opinions out there, and people make up their minds according to their own lights, whether those come from a church or somewhere else, or even, as in my case, from some mix of influences.

Christianity, historically, has had a range of views and positions on its relation to power. Its founder was quite enigmatic on the subject in fact.

They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, “The Roman emperor’s people demand taxes from us.”

He said to them, “Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine.”

The Gospel of Thomas.*

I deliberately quoted a non-canonical gospel there. This saying is, in fact, also found in the canonical gospels, and is one of the sayings generally thought to reflect the actual teachings of Jesus. Some of you may be aware that the radical-ish Jesus Seminar concluded that 80% or so of the recorded sayings of Jesus are of doubtful authenticity… Their methods may have been rather too stringent, in my view, but the fact remains that much that Christians cling to may seem exceedingly odd to Jesus himself. I wonder what he would make of the Saddleback forum.


* Early Christian Writings is the most complete collection of documents from the first two centuries with translations and commentary. Includes the New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, and Church Fathers. The “Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers” site is copyright © 2001-2006 Peter Kirby.



The 7.30 Report – ABC: Clarke and Dawe meet with a reflective Philip Ruddock

Last week’s Clarke and Dawe was the most brilliant one for weeks! It relates to an earlier post here: ‘Pacific solution’ to thank for relaxed detention rules: Ruddock – ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) — among other reports.

BRYAN DAWE, COMEDIAN: Mr Ruddock, thanks for coming in.
JOHN CLARKE, COMEDIAN: It has been too long, Bryan.
BRYAN DAWE: Yes, you have expressed regret this week
JOHN CLARKE: Yes, I have.
BRYAN DAWE: About the length of time the Australian Government held children in detention
JOHN CLARKE: Yes that’s correct.
BRYAN DAWE: When you were in Government.
JOHN CLARKE: Yes that’s right.
BRYAN DAWE: What was your portfolio at the time?
JOHN CLARKE: I was the Federal Immigration Minister.
BRYAN DAWE: And who were the children.
JOHN CLARKE: The children, Bryan, were the children of people seeking asylum in Australia.
BRYAN DAWE: They were put into detention.
JOHN CLARKE: Yes, that’s right.
BRYAN DAWE: Is that normal?
JOHN CLARKE: It was normal at that time, Bryan.
BRYAN DAWE: And now as I understand it you regret that.
JOHN CLARKE: I regret the length of time that those children were kept in detention.
BRYAN DAWE: Yes, and did you speak to the Immigration Minister at the time?
JOHN CLARKE: I was the Immigration Minister at the time.
BRYAN DAWE: So you regret yourself?
JOHN CLARKE: I do not regret myself, Bryan, I regret that those children were not released earlier than they were.
BRYAN DAWE: Why weren’t the children released earlier.
JOHN CLARKE: Because of a lack of funding.
BRYAN DAWE: Oh, so there’s hidden costs in opening a gate, is there.
JOHN CLARKE: That is a facetious remark, Bryan, and I shall ignore it.
BRYAN DAWE: Tell me, what are the costs of letting children out of jail then?
JOHN CLARKE: The children, Bryan, were not in jail.
BRYAN DAWE: What was it called then, this place where children were incarcerated for longer than you now think they should have been?
JOHN CLARKE: The children as I repeatedly said were in detention.
BRYAN DAWE: You would have liked funding for what reason.
JOHN CLARKE: I said I regret, Bryan the fact that we did not have extra funding.
BRYAN DAWE: Yes, but why do you regret that.
JOHN CLARKE: We could have built a better jail. Not for the children…

And so on. They captured The Cadaver style to perfection!